tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722078841361451161.post2562390812755717396..comments2023-07-28T03:31:32.332-05:00Comments on The Thinking Hunter: Thinking Again--Our Legacy's FutureGalen Geerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11252610309377046803noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722078841361451161.post-56683472005792194362010-03-23T22:18:44.875-05:002010-03-23T22:18:44.875-05:00Eric, I "think" I remember that book. Y...Eric, I "think" I remember that book. Years ago I read a book about rat hunting in the UK. I read it while sitting in a stuffy hunting hide over a waterhole in South Africa. That was, I read it between naps. I'm sure some great trophy animals came to drink while I was sleeping, I know they did while I was reading. I never mastered the art of putting down my book and picking up my rifle (or bow, depending on my mood for the day) and getting off a shot. I think it was, in part, I am really not in the mood for killing anything today. But I read some great books. Did you ever read "The Poacher's Tale" by chance? glgGalen Geerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11252610309377046803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722078841361451161.post-56359007443579094812010-03-22T08:55:44.617-05:002010-03-22T08:55:44.617-05:00The comment concerning can you be part of nature i...The comment concerning can you be part of nature ina prison cell reminded me of an excellent hunting books, "Tales of a Rat Hunting Man", by D. Brian Plummer. I describes the hunting culture of rat hunters in England that use ferrets and terriers to follow there sport. Plummer, a high school teacher, gets pulled in with some real Dickenson charactors that reminded me of hunters I know up here in the Green Mountains. If you changed the object of their hunt from rats to grouse it would sound just like other well written hunting books. <br />My point is although severely compromised, I think you can find nature (and some form of hunting) in places like a garbage dumb and a prison cell.Eric C. Nusehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08415209205400590485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722078841361451161.post-35770504225238667792010-03-18T06:34:30.195-05:002010-03-18T06:34:30.195-05:00I thought that the section on Pacelle at the end o...I thought that the section on Pacelle at the end of Kerasote's *Bloodties* was particularly interesting, including how he doesn't really like animals.<br /><br />I appreciate the clear distinctions you're both making, between "hardcore antis" who do essentially want us to "evolve beyond nature" and other folks who object to hunting.<br /><br />Some of the latter--like Hutch and like the vegan I used to be--are definitely nature lovers. I think it's definitely worth it to talk with them.<br /><br />Discounting vegans as merely traumatized does nothing more than alienate potential allies. (I guess that was part of the point of my recent "Hunters and other whackos" post.) If (and I do mean IF) more vegans than non-vegans are in therapy, that doesn't mean there's a causal relationship. They might simply travel in circles where therapy is seen as a useful way of dealing with life.Tovar@AMindfulCarnivorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02786679920725797712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722078841361451161.post-48754927956642041502010-03-17T23:14:40.255-05:002010-03-17T23:14:40.255-05:00OK, I see where you're coming from and agree w...OK, I see where you're coming from and agree with your position on this.<br /><br />I think you're completely right about the hardcore antis. Ever read a profile of Pacelle? He doesn't really even like animals. James Swan wrote that many of the vegans he'd met were in therapy, which I thought was unkind, until I started catching on to the fact that many of the vegans I've dealt with in hunting debates are also in therapy or suffering from some traumas. <br /><br />I don't think any of the hardcore antis <em>could</em> be nature lovers, because how could you have even passing familiarity with nature and fail to understand the cycle of life? This is a breed of people who want us to evolve beyond nature - who already believe we are not a part of it. So yes, I'd say they're extremely nature deficient.<br /><br />Well, many of them. The vegan who comments on my blog all the time, Hutch, is a wildlife rehabber who says he spends lots of time in nature, so he may be an exception. But he's not rabid either. Just a concerned soul who disagrees with what I do.<br /><br />I could say more, but dang, I've got a lot of grading to do.Holly Heyserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03134909592916671876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722078841361451161.post-31367825685800422382010-03-17T22:59:56.826-05:002010-03-17T22:59:56.826-05:00Trevor and Holly, I think you both are very close....Trevor and Holly, I think you both are very close. In fact, I think we are all in the same thought pattern with just slightly different viewpoints. But here is mine: I believe that a person being in nature and having nature within them is the mind. I have had hunters in my hunting camp who had no connection to nature, and other hunters who could feel the wildlife around them, even in their sleep. From all of this, as well as other experiences, I believe that nature is truly a state of mind. In reading some accounts of POWs in VN, Korea and even WWII, I am always surprised how often they talked about being able to place themselves in places with trees, water, and so forth. They "knew" such places existed outside the cell and in their minds could bring them into the cell and when they did the cell, no matter how oppresive, was less confining and they began to see physical things in their cell that were differences, just as nature has differences. I have yet to read an account where they were not outdoorsy people. <br />Our minds both contain us and let us expand. Whenever I've met and tried to deal with a hard core anti-hunter (I am not talking about vegans, non-hunters, or those groups, but the PETA and other ilk) they were not able to visualize nature as alive in their mind. <br />Years ago, around 2000 or 01 I spent a great deal of time on the phone with an anti-hunter and member of CASH, (who also provided me with details about the operations of the groups), and he told me that he would never condone hunting but he envied the ablity of some hunters to be so much in the outdoors. He admitted that he couldn't do it. <br />I wonder if (and I am not being cute here) the truly hard core antis such as Pacelle and Ingrid are actually lacking something in their genetic construction? glgGalen Geerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11252610309377046803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722078841361451161.post-21504925003290585082010-03-17T18:54:54.218-05:002010-03-17T18:54:54.218-05:00I think it also depends on your definition of &quo...I think it also depends on your definition of "in" nature.<br /><br />"Connected to" nature? "Part of" nature? Sure, you always are, no matter what.<br /><br />Whether you feel it or not depends on who you are. Some people don't even feel it in the woods, I wager; others feel it even in a prison cell. A lot of us, though, are going to feel disconnected if we're locked away and can't ever touch the earth.<br /><br />Or, as Holly sort of suggested, if you define nature as "everything that comes from or exists on the earth"...well, then, you're never "outside" it.<br /><br />How are you coming at this one, Galen?Tovar@AMindfulCarnivorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02786679920725797712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722078841361451161.post-4069557099868360602010-03-17T17:51:33.134-05:002010-03-17T17:51:33.134-05:00I think that would have to depend on your definiti...I think that would have to depend on your definition of nature. A prison cell strikes me as a purely artificial environment, and as such, I'd have to say my answer is no. But I'm interested in hearing how you arrive at "yes."Holly Heyserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03134909592916671876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722078841361451161.post-52283010379889389662010-03-17T17:02:41.444-05:002010-03-17T17:02:41.444-05:00Trevor and Holly, and Chas if you are around.
Ques...Trevor and Holly, and Chas if you are around.<br />Question:<br />Can a person in a prison cell be in nature?<br />My answer is "yes" and the same is true for any other person in any place at any time. <br />Agree? Disagree?<br /><br />Holly, I popped over, read some more comments and I'll make one this evening. Loved the one from HH. <br />glgGalen Geerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11252610309377046803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722078841361451161.post-1539918297593209092010-03-17T12:58:39.079-05:002010-03-17T12:58:39.079-05:00Good points, Holly and Galen.
When I lived in Bro...Good points, Holly and Galen.<br /><br />When I lived in Brooklyn, I did feel disconnected from nature in certain ways. I longed to be back in the country.<br /><br />Yet there were still squirrels, birds, and trees around me, even in the ciy. And I still knew I was "part of nature," though at the time my vision did not accept human predation as part of the equation. Thankfully, things (and people) do sometimes change!Tovar@AMindfulCarnivorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02786679920725797712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722078841361451161.post-5332597057905716222010-03-16T20:35:52.184-05:002010-03-16T20:35:52.184-05:00Holly,
Ahh, great! You caught an error on my part...Holly,<br />Ahh, great! You caught an error on my part. I hadn’t considered the high rise existence. I too don’t believe you step outside of nature when you live in a high rise. Nature exists and cannot be bounded by borders. Nature does not cease to exist at the city limits. For a person to be connected spiritually to nature there is no need return to a wild places and fondle the leaves and ferns. It is through the acknowledgement that nature exists and its influence on us is an envelope that contains us in any environment that allows us to experience that spirituality. I don’t believe that this state of a person’s self necessarily requires they be immersed in fishing or hunting—a person’s acknowledgement that others who fish and hunt are part of nature and that nature is within them establishes the link between them and nature. By extension, a person who chooses to separate themselves from nature that includes the angler or hunter actually separates themselves from that spiritual existence between the self and nature—even though they are surrounded by nature. Nature cannot be split into the nice and not-so-nice. Just because I don’t like the fact that squirrels rob bird nests does not mean I can will away the squirrels. Each exists; nothing about it can be changed. Even if I move the nests or kill the squirrels, all I have accomplished is changing the ecology of that patch of earth and nature will immediately begin to adjust to whatever I did. If I move to a high rise to escape the squirrel’s predation on the bird nests I have changed nothing but removed myself from that place within nature and even though I will maintain that the squirrels are wrong nature continues to exist, the proof is the spider web in the corner. Galen Geerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11252610309377046803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722078841361451161.post-76621244957076561132010-03-16T15:05:14.962-05:002010-03-16T15:05:14.962-05:00I agree - to an extent - with your believe that re...I agree - to an extent - with your believe that removal from nature is the fatal flaw of the anti-hunting arguments. I think that reflects our ongoing schizophrenia about our own nature: Most of us recognize that our attempts to improve on nature are responsible for much of our destruction of nature, but we can't seem to stop seeking solutions outside of nature.<br /><br />But I'm not sure I agree that we can't be spiritual in the removed-from-nature state. I think a person locked in a high-rise can find spirituality. I just think any spirituality that's rooted in such an unstable system is vulnerable to collapse. It might sound like I'm contradicting myself, but I'm just not comfortable denying the existence of authentic spiritual experience outside of the realm where I've found <em>my</em> spirituality.Holly Heyserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03134909592916671876noreply@blogger.com