tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722078841361451161.post5718129110005200171..comments2023-07-28T03:31:32.332-05:00Comments on The Thinking Hunter: Gun Owners Who Avoid The NRAGalen Geerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11252610309377046803noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722078841361451161.post-90324315958521414152013-03-20T17:08:13.590-05:002013-03-20T17:08:13.590-05:00I agree. Me and my wife are hunters and love the r...I agree. Me and my wife are hunters and love the range. The NRA is all about money. They don't care about good people that own guns.they seem to care more abouts sales then safety. Its all about money. I have been a conservative my whole life but our fore fathers would not image the craziness that the tea party talk. Its sad what this country is turning into. We need to work together not separate ourselves. I'm old and i remember the last it was like this, the late 50s and 60s. Not good for us all. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722078841361451161.post-55620276051737526422011-05-01T20:15:46.018-05:002011-05-01T20:15:46.018-05:00I'm a gun owner and an gun rights activist. My...I'm a gun owner and an gun rights activist. My problems with the NRA (Negotiate our Right Away) is the absolute caving to the gun control crowd.<br /><br />When the NRA starts to believe, really believe in "shall not be infringed", I might join them again.<br /><br />Until then the dupe of my enemy is my enemy.Glock30Ownerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07140584263782877937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722078841361451161.post-17734773055210263782011-03-09T10:33:24.855-06:002011-03-09T10:33:24.855-06:00I will never join the NRA. Ever.
They have creat...I will never join the NRA. Ever.<br /><br />They have created a political reality where only Republicans can support gun ownership. They have helped foster an environment that endangers law enforcement. They continue to misrepresent the notion of firearms in society.Joshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05409883521642115031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722078841361451161.post-79226242618035206612011-02-16T11:48:34.237-06:002011-02-16T11:48:34.237-06:00Very belatedly: I'm a member of the NRA becaus...Very belatedly: I'm a member of the NRA because I want to be counted among gun owners and believers in the 2nd Amendment.<br /><br />That said, I refuse to respond to the NRA's hyperbolic pleas for more more more money to fight this that and the other thing. Not that I believe there aren't real threats, but as someone who's covered politics for newspapers, I know the difference between real threats and ones that are merely fundraising opportunities. But people who haven't been paid to follow politics can't necessarily make that distinction (not saying they're stupid; just saying that like most Americans, they have no firsthand knowledge of the process), so a lot of the hype NRA sends out gets passed around as gospel.<br /><br />The problem is that the hyperbole makes us look like a bunch of paranoid ninnies sometimes. When I tell non-hunters about what I do, most of them are 100 percent fine with hunting, but they think I'm a moron to associate with the NRA. <br /><br />And yeah, the lockstep thing is irritating as hell. When I decided to switch to non-lead ammo and I blogged about it - clearly stating that it's a personal choice, not something I believe should be law - I was attacked by an NRA goon (volunteer, not paid staffer) for being an "appeaser." I don't much care for a-holes who think that devotion to the 2nd Amendment means giving up rights guaranteed by the 1st.Holly Heyserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03134909592916671876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722078841361451161.post-73888988408775551862011-02-13T00:33:06.585-06:002011-02-13T00:33:06.585-06:00Great Stuff! I am going to post my comments on th...Great Stuff! I am going to post my comments on the regular blog. glgGalen Geerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11252610309377046803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722078841361451161.post-40683480079702911252011-02-11T15:35:54.371-06:002011-02-11T15:35:54.371-06:00That's true, I've seen that backlash on hu...That's true, I've seen that backlash on hunting forums (I think Harry Reid or someone similar in the southwest is NRA-endorsed). <br /><br />I also have no problem with this part of it. As you said - a single issue PAC. Really not different than DU, TU, NWTF, etc. <br /><br />They will support (with press releases, photo ops, etc) those elected officials that support them. Be it Dick Cheney or Rahm Emanuel! If they have a $6 million check for Trout Unlimited, guess what!Kirk Mantayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06556560258304201823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722078841361451161.post-42892751918186768112011-02-11T15:10:05.555-06:002011-02-11T15:10:05.555-06:00There is another issue that I have personally seen...There is another issue that I have personally seen. Among many in the "Tea Party" movement, support of any incumbant, aspecially some one in the D party, is enough to brand you a traiterous anti American.<br /><br />The NRA is a single issue PAC. It only works on that one subject. As long as the politician is pro gun rights, the NRA does not care what other beliefs are held.<br /><br />I'm an NRA member, and I understand that, and accept it as part of the bargain.<br /><br />Please excuse the misspellings. I don't know why the devil I have been having such a hard time with the English language...<br /><br />Best regards,<br />Albert “Afghanus” Rasch<br /><a href="http://trochronicles.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles™</a><br /><a href="http://trochronicles.blogspot.com/2011/02/animal-rights-groups-al-quadea.html" rel="nofollow">The Sinister Al-Qaeda/Animal Rights Group Connection!</a>Albert A Raschhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11431765456546701021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722078841361451161.post-29206559464550234712011-02-09T12:03:30.634-06:002011-02-09T12:03:30.634-06:00What would it take for me to join the NRA (my brot...What would it take for me to join the NRA (my brothers are both members)?<br /><br />Dissassociation from known criminals that happen to be politically or financially influential within the firearms community. <br /><br />You can't keep preaching that "guns don't equal crime" when you have convicted felons on your board!Kirk Mantayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06556560258304201823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722078841361451161.post-3967403323601500652011-02-09T12:01:29.228-06:002011-02-09T12:01:29.228-06:00By the way, search "Sandy Abrams NRA" an...By the way, search "Sandy Abrams NRA" and you can see for yourself. <br /><br />His "good deeds looking out for legal gun owners" are well documented.<br /><br />Good riddance.Kirk Mantayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06556560258304201823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722078841361451161.post-61992351752262924232011-02-09T11:59:43.042-06:002011-02-09T11:59:43.042-06:00I'll tell you why right now. A few neighborh...I'll tell you why right now. A few neighborhoods away from me is a gun store (where I used to do business) that was previously owned by an NRA board member (now his 93 year old mother "runs it" ha ha, because legally he cannot). I'll tell you why - and it gets to your question.<br /><br />ATF raided the shop and recorded almost a thousand illegal gun sales. The shop was at the top of the national list for guns sold, then used in violent crimes. <br /><br />The anti-gun crowd used this guy as a fundraiser, as an example of why guns should be further restricted in our state, and possibly made totally illegal.<br /><br />So, your NRA membership dollars were used to pay NRA legal counsel hundreds of thousands of dollars to defend him - basically an admitted firearms felon - in court. They delayed proceedings for YEARS and finally when the guy was convicted, the NRA counsel spent MORE of your dollars securing a sentence that included allowing him to turn over the store to his mom (who can barely even walk, let alone operate a storefront), AND sell all the guns currently in the store as his "personal collection."<br /><br />All the while, between conviction (remember - now a convicted firearms trafficker with an ATF-revoked license) and sentencing, this guy was running around speaking at NRA fundraising events, celebrity shoots, and so on. REPRESENTING THE NRA!<br /><br />Then, after he became a convicted felon and the ATF revoked his license, the NRA ELECTED HIM TO THEIR BOARD.<br /><br />In the hunting rights and gun rights world, we don't need any more friends like that.Kirk Mantayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06556560258304201823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722078841361451161.post-47048619190964294702011-02-05T13:37:41.460-06:002011-02-05T13:37:41.460-06:00Thanks for your thoughtful reply, Galen, and for w...Thanks for your thoughtful reply, Galen, and for welcoming the diversity of perspectives.<br /><br />I'm honestly not sure what it would take for me to join the NRA. And I certainly can't speak for the many gun-owners and hunters I know who are not NRA members. Some of it may be, as you suggest, a matter of image.<br /><br />The violence aspect is an interesting one. I know a number of people who value firearms as "tools" (for pest control around farm fields, for hunting, etc) -- and who would, if necessary, use guns in defense of themselves, their families, etc -- but who are deeply uncomfortable with the apparent celebration of firearms as "weapons" for use against other humans.<br /><br />Political image is also important, I think. (Incidentally, I'm an independent. I can find things to agree with on both the Left and the Right. I guess I might be, as one friend refers to himself, "socially liberal and fiscally conservative.") In any case, I know plenty of gun owners -- including some former military folks -- who abhor the rhetorical flavor of pro-gun politics.<br /><br />Perhaps someday I'll set aside the time to look closely at the NRA -- its website, rhetoric, and so on -- and try to get a clearer sense of what it is that fails to appeal to (or actively disturbs) some of us. It's an interesting topic, to be sure.<br /><br />By the way, I know people who will not make any public comment about the NRA, on this or any other forum. They are hunters and gun-owners who are involved in the outdoor/hunting industry in one way or another and who -- very specifically -- do not want to end up blacklisted. Zumbo and Cooper are on their minds.Tovar@AMindfulCarnivorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02786679920725797712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722078841361451161.post-22769124752453987142011-02-02T23:02:14.074-06:002011-02-02T23:02:14.074-06:00The broad sweep of comments in reply to my last bl...The broad sweep of comments in reply to my last blog is excellent and represents diverse opinions. Thank you all! However, with the exception of Anonymous, we haven’t addressed the question of what would it take for you to join the NRA?<br />Tovar suggests that the NRA does not tolerate “dissent, political diversity, and civil debate [which] are crucial to a healthy democracy.” Actually, I’ve often wondered about that myself. I do know there is debate at the board meetings and the members are encouraged to speak out at the membership meeting (which can become quite raucous). When I’ve wanted to contact NRA headquarters to register my displeasure, however, I’ve found it to be an exercise in frustration so I’ve turned to members of the board to voice my complaints. <br />Anonymous, you do occupy a unique position in being both right and wrong about the Zumbo affair. The NRA did not lead the charge against Zumbo but they did join the bandwagon that was intent on crucifying him in that they cancelled their contract with him, a move that did hurt the NRA. I do not have much information on the Cooper case. <br />Blake (and others) if you go to http://www.magcloud.com/browse/Issue/61269 you can order a copy of the issue of “The Pines Review” in which I published an essay exploring the “Zumbo Incident.” Or, if you want to read it online you can go to http://issuu.com/thepinesreview/docs/viii_no_1_winter_2010_published and read it.<br /> Blake’s point that the NRA’s highest levels function at the highest levels of government are true, but aren’t we comparing apples to oranges? My argument is to the general population and that by the appearance of the “suit” (just for descriptive purposes) when appearing among the public there is a mistrust generated among a significant portion of the nonmember gun owning public because of the image carried by the suit, and at the opposite end of the spectrum the grunge look alienates a significant portion because it seems to connect to a disreputable element of society. I still believe the NRA must undertake an image change—and soon—or risk losing connection to a political base that will be crucial in the upcoming election.<br />But, what of the NRA’s entrenchment on some issues? Is there, in fact, room for compromise on the Second Amendment? I think if we look back in our history we will see that we have made a number of compromises on the Second Amendment. We’ve backed up on fully automatic weapons, sawed off shotguns, and on other issues and I have not found any of these to be significant threats to the Second Amendment. However, when we begin to get into the question of contemporary semi-automatic firearms are we losing perspective? Except for the magazines the difference in the firearms in question is mostly cosmetic, unlike the M1, M14 and other military semi-auto firearms, with which the operating system is fundamentally consistent with civilian semi-autos. I’ve hunted with an M1 and an M14, and killed deer with each one. As a Marine I trained with the M1 and I carried an M14 in Vietnam, until it was replaced by the M16 (a weapon I still loathe). So, if the NRA draws a line in the sand on the semi-auto question is it that entrenchment that is so repugnant or something else? Is Tovar closer to the core of the debate when he suggests that there is something unsettling about slogans that seem to celebrate violence? Out of curiosity I went to the NRA website and found the Tee shirt Tovar mentioned. Frankly, I cannot disagree with him. It’s the grunge side that a lot of people do find offensive, and not always because of a connection to the NRA but because it seems to be some sort of a collaborative statement of contempt by the wearer. According to the sales blurb the statement about barrels comes from someone’s father who always told him to “give ‘em both barrels.” More likely it was, “if you can’t hit ‘em with both barrels—you can’t shoot!”<br />glgGalen Geerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11252610309377046803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722078841361451161.post-15083927193766853882011-02-01T12:44:54.858-06:002011-02-01T12:44:54.858-06:00Tamar: Do you mean true assault weapons, i.e. rifl...Tamar: Do you mean <i>true</i> assault weapons, i.e. rifles capable of firing fully-automatic like a machine gun? Or, do you mean those scary-looking semi-automatic black rifles?Blake Sobiloffnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722078841361451161.post-31903593847552247832011-02-01T11:01:51.179-06:002011-02-01T11:01:51.179-06:00I'm a gun owner and (nascent) hunter, and my o...I'm a gun owner and (nascent) hunter, and my objection to the NRA is straightforward: I think assault weapons have no place in the hands of American civilians. <br /><br />It's not the suits. It's not the PR. It's not the constancy of the message. It's the content of the message. I simply disagree.Tamar@StarvingofftheLandhttp://www.starvingofftheland.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722078841361451161.post-1573919367657386412011-02-01T10:07:56.349-06:002011-02-01T10:07:56.349-06:00Er, and a quick correction: I meant 1977 in Cincin...Er, and a quick correction: I meant 1977 in Cincinnati, not 1998 Philly.Blake Sobiloffnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722078841361451161.post-73452300707436109522011-02-01T10:07:26.749-06:002011-02-01T10:07:26.749-06:00Blake's point about the consistency of message...Blake's point about the consistency of message needed for an organization to be effective is a good one.<br /><br />I'll have to give this more thought, but I think my overall aversion to the NRA comes not so much from the fact that it is internally consistent as from the fact it (A) seems hostile to anything but the most conservative political beliefs and most sweeping interpretations of the 2nd Amendment, and (B) disseminates messages that seem to celebrate not only firearms but violence (the T-shirt reading “Give ‘Em Both Barrels -- It’s Your Right!” is a good example).Tovar@AMindfulCarnivorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02786679920725797712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722078841361451161.post-3169768927812525722011-02-01T09:48:24.809-06:002011-02-01T09:48:24.809-06:00Thoughtful comments, Galen. I think you may have a...Thoughtful comments, Galen. I think you may have a point about image, but as I'm already seeing from the couple of comments on your story, I don't think it accounts for the majority of people's negative perceptions.<br /><br />On the image: The highest levels of the NRA focus on what's happening at the highest levels of government, and in those circles the suit-n-tie is still required, so they've continued wearing that uniform. Realize that much of the communication to the membership from the top is also expected to be seen by, and influence, the highest levels of government. I don't see any change happening here—dreadful memories of Jimmy Carter's fireside chats are dancing in my head.<br /><br />On other causes: Gun owners are pretty independent folks, and it's very difficult to get them to march together. Add a little misunderstanding—or a healthy paranoia towards large organizations—and it's easy for the NRA to come out on the wrong end of someone's opinion.<br /><br />For example, the first "Anonymous" comment attributes Zumbo's and Cooper's problems to the NRA, while the reality is the NRA had nothing to do with either incident. Zumbo wrote on the Outdoor Life website that anyone who used black rifles was a terrorist, and USA Today reported that Cooper gave to Obama's presidential campaign at a time when many people were concerned that Obama was going to be very anti-gun.<br /><br />Zumbo's aspersions against all good gun owners who happen to enjoy a rifle he doesn't received the backlash they deserved—but a backlash that was driven, not by the NRA, but by modern Internet communications. Similarly, Cooper's actions were seen as backstabbing and threatened the viability of the company he built. To continue as a viable business, Cooper Arms was forced to ask for his resignation; to do otherwise would invite the kind of backlash that was the downfall of the old, British-owned Smith & Wesson. Again, none of this backlash was orchestrated or promoted by the NRA, despite "Anonymous'" perception to the contrary.<br /><br />Both "Anonymous" and Tovar decry the fact that the NRA works hard to present a consistent message. I don't see how the NRA can be effective otherwise. The NRA isn't a debating society. It's an organization who's members pay it to be the most effective advocate possible for our Second Amendment rights. A disjointed, uncommitted message would be like throwing red meat in front of the wolfish anti-gunners. "See!" they'd cry, "even the NRA can't agree that [name your favorite infringement here] isn't common sense gun control." If that ever happens, all gun owners lose.<br /><br />And, as I'm wont to do, I'll remind folks that the NRA is nothing more than an organization of members. If you don't like the way the NRA is doing things, become a member and vote to change they way they do things! Remember it wasn't so long ago that the NRA was an ineffectual advocate, hiding its head in the sand. Marion Hammer got fed up with it and revolutionized the organization during the 1998 Philadelphia convention. You could do the same.Blake Sobiloffnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722078841361451161.post-82788647638804488032011-02-01T08:20:29.487-06:002011-02-01T08:20:29.487-06:00My perspective is somewhat similar to Anonymous...My perspective is somewhat similar to Anonymous's above. I know people who have spent time inside NRA headquarters and have been told by NRA employees that "these walls have ears." The employees' views might differ from the NRA hard-line but they only dared to express those views elsewhere. Like Anonymous, I think dissent, political diversity, and civil debate are crucial to a healthy democracy. As far as I can tell, the NRA does not tolerate such things.Tovar@AMindfulCarnivorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02786679920725797712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3722078841361451161.post-73859971047351972592011-02-01T01:08:56.528-06:002011-02-01T01:08:56.528-06:00I own handguns, rifles and shotguns and am an avid...I own handguns, rifles and shotguns and am an avid reloader, shooter and hunter. I won't give a penny to the NRA, ever. You're quite confused if you think it's the suits and red ties, it's the vicious NRA attacks against good people. Try Googling "NRA" together with either of the names Jim Zumbo or Dan Cooper. You NRA guys eat your own. Question using assault rifles for hunting (as Zumbo did - even after qualifying that he was a traditionalist) and lose your career. Support Obama (in Cooper's case) and lose the gun company you founded to save your workers jobs. I have plenty of democratic friends who support gun rights, not a one of them is an NRA member. The freedom of speech is as fundamental to American freedom as gun rights are, but if you are in the gun business and express an opinion in opposition to the NRA, the NRA will destroy you. There is no room in the NRA for any opinion except the NRA hardline. I consider the NRA backed attacks on Zumbo and Cooper Un-American. That's why I will never support the NRA.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com